East Lothian Council

Dumfries and Galloway
Ayrshire (including Arran)
Lanarkshire
Scottish Borders
Midlothian
East Lothian
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Steve
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East Lothian Council

Post by Steve »

East Lothian council has begun a consultation on new Land Management Rules to address the influx of campers and motorhomes in 2020. They plan to severely restrict overnight parking and parking on certain roads ( I suspect near to the beaches etc). A new motorhome park is being planned in Barns Ness (Dunbar) but this will not be enough for the whole of East Lothian. Basically motorhomes will be only able to park on this site overnight. Most already have height barriers, so parking during the day is not possible for the most popular ones anyway. I have submitted a reply with suggestions to enhance facilities at Yellowcraig beach, link below if anyone else wishes to submit a reply.
https://eastlothianconsultations.co.uk/ ... U_d8MRQwjc
Steve - CAMpRA Leadership Team
Biggarmac
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Re: East Lothian Council

Post by Biggarmac »

This needs a great many replies to East Lothian Council as the rules they are intending to enact are basically "Get out of East Lothian we don't want you here"
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Re: East Lothian Council

Post by AndyC »

Response sent.
Eddiey
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Re: East Lothian Council

Post by Eddiey »

I may have gone into this the wrong way but after registering first, I could then find the article through this link below and email address to respond, and stay informed?

https://eastlothianconsultations.co.uk/ ... ent-rules/

legal@eastlothian.gov.uk

Similar to first post bur emphasis on registering email address. Not sure if it's needed just easier to find for me.

If I'm wrong let me know.
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Re: East Lothian Council

Post by Robina »

Hi, I have sent an email to the legal@... address with a link to the CampRA webpage. Denying the existence of motorhomers is not a sensible way forward.
irnbru
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Re: East Lothian Council

Post by irnbru »

Also just sent a reply by email.
Grey Wanderer
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Re: East Lothian Council

Post by Grey Wanderer »

A reply for what it is worth...


Dear Sirs

Please find below my response to your consultation feedback paper.


Feedback from LMRs consultation


Please read the 'LMR proposal document' before answering the questions.


Particular matters relative to the proposed Rules that may be subject of comment include:

· The distinction between camping and residing in a motorhome.

o Is this clear?

o There is no such legal entity as a motorhome, the vehicles to which this presumably refers are classified by DVLA as either a Private light goods vehicle, or car M1 with body type motor caravan.

o Residing in a motorhome, caravan, car or other motorised vehicle is not a form of camping.
o Legal definition of Residing means domiciled in or having a permanent place of abode. ... Reside means to dwell permanently or continuously or to occupy a dwelling or home as one's permanent or temporary place of abode. Thus: can it be assumed this policy does not apply to transient overnight occupation of a motor caravan, which is neither permanent or a home?

o

o Parking in a motor caravan (sleeping or otherwise) with nothing placed outside, no awnings extended, no external domestic activities is not camping, it is parking…this definition is applied throughout Europe. Short-term overnight parking limited to 24-72 hours for motor caravans is provided extensively through Europe, and increasingly but not yet extensively in UK. Since Scotland wanted to stay in the EU, it would be disingenuous to adopt a different definition.

o Do you agree that these ways of visiting and enjoying the outdoors need to be managed differently?

o Campsites provide an extensive range of sanitary facilities: toilets, showers, washing up, laundry etc. suitable for tents and caravans that lack their own sanitation. Motor caravans are self-contained with toilet, shower and washing facilities on-board, and have tanks for fresh water, wastewater and toilet contents, and have internal bins and external lockers for storage of rubbish awaiting disposal in a proper location. All they require is somewhere to park; plus access to a tap, drain and bin once every 3-6 days. They do not need campsites save in the absence of more appropriate facilities elsewhere. Dedicated facilities for motor caravans are provided throughout Europe, and now increasingly in the UK, in places like Cumbria, Yorkshire, Lancashire, and many coastal towns; and particularly in Scotland where councils in the Highlands, Fyfe, Loch Lomond and the Trossachs are urgently playing catch up to have facilities for motor caravans in place to welcome them in 2021. East Lothian appears to be marching regressively in the opposite direction. All that bans, prohibitions, barriers signs and the waste of police time spent in enforcement achieve is to move problems elsewhere without addressing them. Indeed at the moment, in view of the pent up Staycation that is certain to overwhelm the present campsite infrastructure any means possible must be sought to find alternative solutions for motor caravans to relieve pressure on campsites to create spare capacity for those in caravans and tents who actually need their services.

o Do you have any further comments on this topic?

o Management need to be positive and constructive seeking outcomes that are satisfactory both for visitors and residents. Moving people on simply intensifies problems elsewhere.



· Support of responsible “wild camping”

o Is this the only form of camping that should be supported in Countryside sites, Parks and Greenspace?

o Do you have any further comments on this topic?

o Assuming responsible wildcamping takes place in areas away from roads and car-parks as part of a walking, climbing or cycling trip, and follows the country code then yes it should be acceptable. Norway specifies a minimum distance from roads and inhabited buildings…this would seem a good idea to avoid camping next to roads and car parks and disturbance of residents.



· The General Rules Applicable to All Areas identify some behaviours that need to be regulated because of disruption to the enjoyment of others.

o Are there other behaviours that you feel should be included?

o Do you have any further comments on this topic?

o Indiscriminate parking on verges and private land by a minority involving damage and trespass needs to be controlled. However the majority of responsible motor caravanners should not be discriminated against by the measures adopted. It is contrary to long established principles of jurisprudence in the UK that the majority may not be punished for the actions of a minority. We do not ban cars from car parks because they leave litter, nor do we ban cars from the roads because some people ignore speed limits. And sleeping is not an anti-social or illegal activity. With regard to parking controls, TROs etc. government guidance is to consider alternative solutions before introducing restrictions and prohibitions. Alternatives should include the designation of motor caravan overnight spaces in car parks where these do not impede late evening or overnight use by residents and businesses, and provision of motor caravan Aires (on the continental European model). This can generate revenue to support proper management and provision of facilities.



· The General Rules Applicable to All Areas makes mention of dog free areas.

o Do you support the principle of dog free areas?

o Yes, but only where wildlife, nesting birds, and farm animals are at risk, or children’s play is compromised.

o If so for what reasoning?

o Do you have any further comments on this topic?



· The Rules Specific to Motor Vehicles confine vehicles to designated parking areas and designated roads only

o Do you agree or disagree with these restrictions?

o Yes, inasmuch as it prevents damage to landscape, tracks and paths by off road vehicles and motorcycles.

o Do you have any further comments on this topic?

o If it is sought to manage motor caravan parking then an adequate number of overnight and daytime parking areas should be designated to reflect levels of demand…as per above comments.



· The Rules Specific to Motor Vehicles restrict overnight parking.

o Do you agree or disagree with this restrictions?

o I disagree strongly if these restrictions are to be applied indiscriminately to all occupants of motor caravans in all locations throughout East Lothian. I consider such to be disproportionate and discriminatory. The only exceptions stated are for disabled people. But a high proportion of motor caravanners are elderly; out of peak season this is a majority. Many suffer the multiple infirmities that come with age, not sufficient to warrant a disabled badge, but sufficient to substantially curtail their mobility. Many are susceptible to infection, have cardiac problems, cancer, have damaged immunity, have continence problems and many other issues. For so many their motor caravan is their only viable and safe means of transport, without which they would be stuck at home isolated waiting for God. I am myself in this category; without my motor caravan I could never visit my son who is a professor at Heriot Watt. Even with it my trips have to be broken down into small hops of less than two hours, sometimes only one hour depending on levels of pain. So I frequently break my journey in the Borders or East Lothian. I stop when I have to, its difficult to plan and book ahead but campsites insist on it; but in summer most campsites are fully booked long in advance; in winter when I normally visit Scotland most are closed or the ground unsuitable for a motor caravan. The last time I tried to travel to Scotland by car ended up with a hospital visit, the last time I attempted to visit by train, the pain medication I was given afterwards caused a reaction leaving me with an intensely itchy rash needing hospital treatment and lasting three years, and still not gone. My most recent trip to visit my daughter by public transport cost me three weeks with a respiratory infection. I just need somewhere to park safely overnight.

o Do you have any further comments on this topic?

o Motor caravanners need to stay within walking distance of the town, village, and rural places they visit, unlike caravan and tent campers they do not have a car for local exploration and to visit shops, pubs, restaurants etc. If they are to visit towns and spend money in such local businesses they must be able to stop nearby. And in country locations elderly people do not find it easy to start looking for somewhere to stay at the end of a long day in the country; being able to stay near the start of country walks is important to them.



You have asked no questions regarding the paragraphs in section 11. My comments as follows:

Whilst reasonably seeking to give the wardens some status and authority in enforcing the council’s rules, they appear to confer arbitrary powers to move people on irrespective of any mitigating factors. No mention is made of the duty of care that local authority personnel have to ensure that those they seek to move are in a fit state to comply. The shocking prospect of vulnerable elderly people in a motor caravan being knocked up late at night and forced to drive fills one with horror. The natural diminution of night vision in the elderly, their being too tired, or the possibility of them having taken routine medication having a soporific effect, must be taken into account.



Statements such as: ‘Are likely to’ …’in the opinion of’…’is about to’ , ‘ in and around’ all seem rather vague for a policy document seeking to confer legal powers. One gets the impression the council is trying to assume the powers of a TRO, without having to seek approval for a TRO and risk it being turned down by the Scottish Government.

I would draw your attention to the website of CAMpRA (Campaign for Real Aires) campaigning for the provision of proper facilities and overnight parking for motor caravans in the UK. www.campra.org.uk. This shows numerous examples from UK and Europe for how to create facilities for motor caravans.



Regards

Ian ...
Steve
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Re: East Lothian Council

Post by Steve »

Found this old post, was this the first signs?
Just stayed at Fisherrow harbour and found out that Lothian Council have told theFHSA who run it that they can no longer allow motorhomes to park overnight.
The FHSA are keen to allow parking so is there anything we as a group can do? The email is :
campers@fhsa.org.uk
Even emails of support would be welcome.
Steve - CAMpRA Leadership Team
Steve
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Re: East Lothian Council

Post by Steve »

Answers to consultation

1 Is the distinction between camping and residing in a motorhome clear?
Yes
2 Do you agree that these ways of visiting and enjoying the outdoors need to be managed differently?
Yes
3 Do you have any further comments on this topic?
Yes
Space to offer additional comments: motorhomes and camping:
It should be recognised that sleeping overnight in a motorhome is not camping but rather is parking. Overnight parking should not be legislated against. It is
encouraging that a number of the Scottish Council Authorities are now providing overnight, non-camping, parking facilities for motorhomes. (generically known as
Aires on the continent). There are many 1000s of such facilities on the continent. Typically, these can be as simple as an area of hard standing with a rubbish bin.
Most have fresh water, waste water and toilet waste facilities. Some facilities include provision of Electrical Hook Ups but most motorhomes don’t require EHU for
a typical one night stay. Efforts are being made countrywide to improve the provision of simple overnight stops for motorhomes and is being spearheaded by The
Campaign for Real Aires:
https://campra.org.uk/
CampRA have a wealth of information available to support those trying to create aires including an established provider of aires on the continent.
Consultation questions: wild camping
4 Is responsible “wild camping” the only form of camping that should be supported in Countryside sites, Parks and Greenspace?
No
5 Do you have any further comments on this topic?
Yes
Space for comments: wild camping:
This is a loaded question and inherently excludes consideration of the provision of overnight parking for motorhomes. The draft LMR should be amended to
legitimise perfectly acceptable overnight parking for motorhomes. This is separate from , and quite distinct from, wild camping. There is no reason why overnight
parking of motorhomes (in appropriate locations) should not co-exist alongside (not literally!) wild camping.
Consultation questions: behaviours
6 The General Rules Applicable to All Areas identify some behaviours that need to be regulated because of disruption to the enjoyment of
others.Are there other behaviours that you feel should be included?
No
Steve - CAMpRA Leadership Team
bigtwin
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Re: East Lothian Council

Post by bigtwin »

Set of answers from the second page of my response (Steve posted the first page of my responses above):

7 Do you have any further comments on this topic?
No
Space for comments on behaviours:
Consultation questions: dog free areas
8 The General Rules Applicable to All Areas makes mention of dog free areas.Do you support the principle of dog free areas?
No
Please tell us the reasons for your answer:
It is the countryside! The behaviours expected from dog owners are well established and it is difficult to envisage any specific local conditions/requirements that
would differentiate this area of the country from the rest of the country that would justify any special measures to discriminate against dog owners.
9 Do you have any further comments on this topic?
No
Space for additional comments:
Consultation questions: motor vehicles
10 The Rules Specific to Motor Vehicles confine vehicles to designated parking areas and designated roads only. Do you agree with these
restrictions?
Yes
Please tell us the reasons for your answer:
11 Do you have any more comments on this topic?
Yes
Space for comments: motor vehicles:
The response to Q10 is predicated on the adequate provision (both suitability and capacity) of such parking areas.
If demand exceeds supply there are inevitable, and predictable, consequences.
12 Do you agree with the restrictions specific to overnight parking of Motor Vehicles?
No
Please explain the reasons for your answer.:
If it is permissible to park a vehicle in the daytime, why would it not be acceptable to park overnight? It is accepted that, depending on locations, there could be
arguments against daytime parking using the ‘blight’ argument but it is difficult to see how this could be used at night.
Banning overnight parking is likely only to result in vehicles overnighting in/at unsuitable locations; it is difficult to conceive of a situation that would warrant a ban
on overnight parking. What would be the benefit of such an action?
13 Do you have any other comments on this topic?
No
Space for additional comments: motor vehicles overnight parking:
General comments
Are there any additional comments that you would like to make on the Draft Land Management Rules for East Lothian?
Yes
Space for additional comments:
The draft LMR needs to be amended to recognise the legitimacy of overnight parking as distinct from overnight camping. The exclusion, deliberate or otherwise,
is ignoring a significant element of the user community. If the exclusion is designed to force motorhomes to use campsites, it is unlikely to be effective. Saying
that motorhomes should use campsites is a little like saying those that choose to use B&Bs should be forced to use hotels. They each provide for a different
market with different needs (most B&B users have no need for many of the facilities provided by hotels (bar, gym, restaurants, etc)). The vast majority of
motorhome users have little/infrequent need of the facilities provided by campsites. Consequently it is vital that the draft LMR recognises the need for legitimate
overnight parking.
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